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Author Topic:   What I've learned...
Pook

Master Don Juan
posted 02-03-2001 07:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pook     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I know everyone has different objectives on this forum. Mine was a long term relationship.

After being away from this forum for a long while, I've realized what I think are conclusive things.

Anti-Dump is right all the way. Speed seduction, for the case of long term relationships, is worthless.

I would get results with speed seduction. But I might as well have been an actor. I enjoyed getting responses, but I was never happy.

Forget NLP, forget Speed Seduction, unless you wish to practice them all your life. For a long term relationship, they are worthless.

Anti-Dump and the advice on the website is much much better and actually works.

I have flaws, as does anyone else. Speed seduction could veil them, but I want to be accepted for myself and my flaws as well. True love demands the acceptance of the entire package.

Here's what I noticed to be extremely effective:

1) Go for the number, go for the date. (Guys should not flirt. Women flirt. The job of guys is to ask for the number and to call for the date. This cuts through all women's games.)

2) Don't talk about yourself! (Focus the conversation on her or on her interests. Only mention things about you if they are the same: "Yes, I think the same about parrots being evil too." So many women have said that I'm a 'mystery'. "Is this good?" "Yes" This is because when I do comment on myself, it is very vague and general. I keep my mouth shut. Also, you come across as a good listener. A good listener is the most sexiest trait a guy can have.)

3) Demand respect! (She may not give you her company, she may not give you her affection, but she should always, and I mean always, give you her respect. Women will not stay with guys they don't respect, and you wouldn't want to be with a woman that didn't respect you anyway.)

4) Don't be afraid to disagree. (This runs contrary to Speed Seduction. No, do not seek disagreements. If possible, try to bypass them. But never be afraid to disagree. Women want guys who have a mind of their own.)

5) Women are never the priority. (Your life is more important. Women take a backseat to your passions and hobbies. Failure to do this makes you desperate.)

Most imporantly, be yourself. Speed seduction will not give you happiness. You want to be accepted for who you are, not because you memorized patterns and lines from an internet website. Being yourself does not mean being a shy sniveling nice guy, it also includes self improvement.

You cannot 'act' yourself into happiness. Away with the NLP! Away with the Speed Seduction! Being yourself may give you more failures in dating, but it is the only path to true happiness.

Pook
"As you think, you shall become."
"Men will be nice when nice guys get laid."

-----------------------------

[This message has been updated by Monsieur Pookiness on 07-25-2002).]

Why the update? There are always updates because you never stop learning.

Of Self-Improvement

By putting the focus on you, rather than the women, you DO gain a control on your life. Most people sleep-walk through life. Others figure out what women want and, like clay, remold themselves to that. But by focusing on yourself, you keep yourself from ever being desperate and, even if things do NOT work out with a particular woman or women, you are still better for it since you haven't stopped upgrading yourself.

At every work place since the 'Kill that Desperation' post, I always enter being one way and leave another. For example, one job I enter being 'kinda' cute to the girls there. I leave being 'pretty damn cute' and enter the next job at the same level. Eventually, I become 'hot' and leave to the next. (And I was a computer geek! If I could turn myself from a nerd to a stud, then anything is possible!)

In all your dealings with women, YOU are the only constant. Changing in how you think leads to a more correct action. A sound mind creates sound attraction.

I won't lie; self-improvement will get you no girls. But it does make it MUCH EASIER to obtain girls. If you don't have the balls to risk than nothing you can do will get girls. Nothing.

One thing that hasn't been stressed enough here is SOCIAL-IMPROVEMENT. This is beyond how to talk to a chick. This is being OUTGOING (which is hard to do when you are reading DJ posts. It's a classic Catch 22). Yes, you can read and be Mr. Smart. Yes, you can pump weights and be tough. But if you aren't outgoing, you will still be SINGLE.

Many guys here will fit this description: they are good-looking and know it. They are fit. They know they want a cutie. But, alas, there is a problem. It is not that they are shy; they have overgrown that. It is not that they are ugly; they are adonises. No, it is that they are imprisoned in their own homes. "Ask her out." To what!? What should they do? They feel uncomfortable since it is not what they usually do.

The only way to do something with confidence and with ease is to do it often. The Don Juan is not a mental trick, NLP, or script but a HABIT. Aristotle says, "We are the sum of our habits." You cannot read what is on this site and expect results. Habit is central. (And habits change from HOW you think!)

To those guys plagued with an icy fear on what to do when dating and all, they should date themselves. Literally try taking yourself out. What would you do? What is the plan? The focus is fun. If usual dates don't come to your liking, then choose what YOU want to do.

"But Pook! She may not like what I want!"

But YOU are the focus. As Anti-Dump always said, she MUST like your date ideas. If she says no, then oh well! If she does, then you two like doing the same things together! Dating is a machine to cycle through all the chicks and get you the one that fits. It is not a bending over backward to please the girl and 'woo' her.

Of Seduction

It can be wise not to seduce too fast, to not get her between your sheets ASAP. Patience is always a good thing and lets things grow between you two.

Confident guys are confident because they know that it will come. If it is not now, then it will come. If it will come, then it is not now. Yet, it will come. I think patience has been the biggest element to my success than anything else.

Of Risk

Why are you here at this site? For most guys, it is because they fell in love with a woman who tore his heart to pieces. Now they devour Don Juan material so it can never happen again. They never emotionally risk again; they just utilize scripts and philosophies.

Emotional risk is not stupid AFC stuff like calling all the time. It is not getting sappy. It is putting your ego on the line. Why should you do this? Because there is a greater risk than if you don't. Why have a woman if all you don't invest some of your emotion in it? It ruins the fun and the love.

"But Pook! You said be desireless!"

Desireless means controlling yourself rather than having her control you. And this is at the beginning. After a while with a girl, you SHOULD want to put some emotional attachment in.

"But what if I get hurt!?" Then you still win! Would you be here at this forum, learning how to be a Don Juan, if you got the woman you wanted?

You should thank the girl you didn't get because now you are a Don Juan. (Imagine if you were an AFC for your entire life! Yech!) If something similiar occurs, the same radical improvement will follow.

Do not use DJism as an armor for the risk of emotional attachment. DJing is a TOOL to a goal. The goal is not DJism itself.

Dating is a Win-Win

Do not look at women as a win or lose game. THE GOAL is to find a woman you love and one who loves you back (without either settling). The goal is NOT to make every chick like you. The goal is to make YOURSELF happy. Think of it as a weeding out process where THE ONE is at the end.

Every breath we take brings us one closer to our last. What are you waiting for? For yourself to become 'perfect'? You never will be. The key is to weed them out to find if she is perfect for you.

Do not try to get into a woman's head. I've done so and I've wasted countless time in the process. Women are meant to be loved, not understood. If you understand them, you can never love them. So choose to love them; it's a happier life than that of a dried up philosopher.

There is nothing to lose. Success is a certainty now. Turn off the computer, go out, and live.

[This message has been edited by Pook (edited 07-25-2002).]

IP: 158.135.1.100

Gator Ash

Don Juan
posted 02-03-2001 11:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gator Ash     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would have to agree that simply using Speed Seduction the way you described will most likely not get you what you seek, along term relationship. On, the other hand don't take SS to represent the scope of what NLP can do for you personally. You can use it to remove limiting beliefs, install new attitudes in yourself, etc. In fact, if you were to master the language patterns of NLP, you would be able to communicate with greater elegance and actually understand what people really "mean" to a greater degree. And you would find that useful for getting a long term relationship. In fact, you could probably even experience greater success in your professional life and impact other people positively in a very profound way. Now, how much would like that?

For a site that shows you how to learn and use NLP with INTEGRITY go to http://www.neurosemantics.com

IP: 128.227.127.184

sosuave.com

Administrator
posted 02-05-2001 11:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sosuave.com     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tips forum.

IP: 24.93.77.118

Don the Legend

Master Don Juan
posted 01-10-2002 02:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Don the Legend     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
bump

IP: 65.69.95.209

Maximus

Master Don Juan
posted 01-11-2002 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Maximus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pook:

Most imporantly, [b]be yourself
.

Being yourself may give you more failures in dating, but it is the only path to true happiness.

[/B]



Here here!

To be yourself, you must first know your self.

To know yourself is to accept the bad with the good.

To accept yourself means you are truly content with who you are.

If you are content, you do not care what others think about you, and respect them just the same.

If you do not care what others think, you are not overly concerned about how you act or speak in front of someone.

If you no longer worry about how you act and speak, being yourself becomes innate, not forced or faked.

You are you.

Like minds tend to find each other.

Therefore, you are what you think. You find what you seek, so to speak.

Excellent post Pook!

Maximus


------------------
The Way of The
Simpleton - A
simpleton: lays down
no first law, takes
everything that
happens as it comes.
The simplicity of the
truly sophisticated.

---- Bruce Lee

IP: 209.202.57.44

gekkoca

Master Don Juan
posted 01-11-2002 04:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gekkoca     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well said POOK...
So are you saying dont use KINO?
I am going to a movie with a young 21 yr old tommorrow night.I am 31 yrs old.Would you recomend me not putting my arm around her!Is that KINO to you?This woman made fun about a date once that hesitated forever trying to put his arm around her.We laughed about it as he was being meek.I was planning on acting like that geek in imitation to get a laugh out of her.Would this be different as I am being playful?
You say to be yourself and not use NLP.So what if I am the quiet type.Just remain being quiet and speechlittle?Or do you believe in faking it till you make it.Have you tried NLP before or speed seduction?Or have you always been natural at this game.

IP: 24.66.94.141

Pook

Master Don Juan
posted 01-11-2002 10:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pook     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is an old post. My thoughts have changed some, but its generally the same. I guess I should post more often.

gekkoca, you are worrying too da*m much. A date cannot be a social chess, you both will go home unhappy. In short, focus entirely on the FUN.

Make sure you are well rested, groomed in the way that makes you comfortable, therefore you are more natural and carefree. I'd go easy on the kino. (Its better to give a hug than shake hands, for example).

------------------
Pook
"As you think, you shall become."
"The biggest risk you can take is not to risk at all."

IP: 158.135.8.136

MrSassyPants

Master Don Juan
posted 01-12-2002 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrSassyPants     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Its been a long time since I've been around, but I'd advise against putting your arm around her. Its a widely acknowledged (move) on a date. It seems cheesy and desperate. I would use all the kino I could (all of it very subtle and non-sexual).

Ultimately, you'll get away with a lot more kino if you act confident and restrained.

A guy that's confident and strong will send shivers up a girl's back if he lightly touches the small of her back on the way up stairs (assuming its appropiate). A guy that seems like he's moving fast and trying to "get something" will give her the willies with the same move.

Remember, good kino is subtle, non sexual and mutual.

IP: 172.161.48.39

Squy

Master Don Juan
posted 09-07-2002 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Squy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
my first double bump-bump to a post...

IP: 80.202.75.15

SexPDX

Master Don Juan
posted 09-07-2002 08:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SexPDX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
Most imporantly, [b]be yourself. Speed seduction will not give you happiness. You want to be accepted for who you are, not because you memorized patterns and lines from an internet website. Being yourself does not mean being a shy sniveling nice guy, it also includes self improvement.
[/b]

Pook,

It doesn't really sound like you really made it far enough with Speed Seduction to make such wide-sweeping condemnations of it. Memorizing and field testing canned patterns from the layguide as you and I have both done is just an EXERCISE. No experienced SSer (which I don't myself claim to be yet) will say that regurgitating words you have read off the internet is the ideal way to seduce a woman.

Speed Seduction is a framework that allows inexperienced guys to learn how to speak seductively to a woman. I do think that it's overdone in it's marketing as some kind of "magic bullet" but that is to be expected being that the creator of the product is very skilled both in hypnosis AND in marketing.

There is a huge misconception that Speed Seduction is in direct conflict with such things as LTR's or self improvement and nothing could be further from the truth. A girl is not an LTR prospect until you have been having sex with her for a while anyhow (at least not the way I do things). Before you first have sex with a woman you need to understand that she has to experience certain feelings before sex is a possibliity. She has what is called a "fvck fantasy" which you find out about by eliciting values. Fantasies are lies. How is it "lying" or "not being yourself" when really all you are doing is feeding her own lies back to her.

Self improvement? SS is only in conflict with self improvement if it is MISAPPLIED to be a way around doing things that engender genuine good feelings about oneself.

"Be yourself" is useless for the initial PU...come to think of it...what the hell does that mean for PU purposes? If I am not myself, what am I? I don't quite see how anyone can blow off an entire thought paradigm and seduction methodology as simply "not being oneself". Being "yourself" (whatever we decide that menas) in the initial PU is useful if "yourself" is a person that paricular woman naturally wants to fvck, otherwise it's useless. Whether or not an LTR is your goal, the initial PU is to me an

Now I am not defending SS as being the be all and end all of seduction and attraction, but there is value in the ideas.

------------------
- The performer known as Nick

IP: 63.53.239.143

Pook

Master Don Juan
posted 09-10-2002 03:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pook     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is what is percieved about Speed Seduction:

A way to 'seduce' women, to get them to want you, and for YOU to finally win by getting sex.

The reality:

Eliminating certain societal barriers that keep women from their caeser-like urge of union and the male becomes the entertainment of the woman. not vice-versa.

Speed Seduction gets the girl mentally having sex so she physically will have sex.

Speed Seduction is useful because it works in different ways. It is good for the Nice Guy to truly see how women operate. My problem with it is that it is AFCness that works. The AFC would do anything he wanted to get the girl he wanted; the only difference between AFCness and Speed Seduction is that Speed Seduction works. The AFC was just listening to all the women
and doing their stupid advice. But in the end, the speed seducer and the AFC live and die for the woman's pleasure.

Speed Seduction says, "You see a hot chick, don't think, go in immediately. Demonstrate personality, value. Make her feel good. After rapport, CLOSE."

I say, "You see a hot chick, you ask do YOU want her, go in if you do. Don't demonstrate YOUR personality, test for HERS. Test for HER value. Keep YOURSELF feeling good. CLOSE if you want."

With the first, the emphasis is entirely on HER. You become a boy toy, the one who becomes shaped, usually by her imagination, for HER pleasure. With the second, you are WEEDING OUT all the ones that don't fit you and getting the one that fits YOUR standards.

Don't tell me that Speed Seduction does not revert the man to boytoy. Look!

Mirroring When she does this, do that. When she moves there, move likewise. This will make HER feel more relaxed.

Pattering "When you FEEL THAT CONNECTION, right THERE, you get that WARM feeling DEEP INSIDE that makes you realize
that dreams do come true." This is to give her pleasure, to put her in heat.

Eliciting Values She talks and goes 'blah blah blah' so you just take what she says and paraphrase it back to her.
She gets *happy*.

And so on. She is the focus, not yourself. And oftentimes, in all the lay reports, you'll see that the woman initially had
an interest in the guy AT SOME LEVEL. Why, what was blocking her for jumping the guy? Certain societal barriers. So the
boytoy comes along and either makes her so horny that she forgets them or he slowly disables them. He elicites values show
she thinks they are 'soul mates'. He patterns her to get her thinking in THAT way. He relaxes her slut concerns.

George Bernard Shaw says in his "Don Juan in Hell" that,

quote:
Bah! what need I add? Do you not understand that when I stood face to face with Woman, every fibre in my clear
critical brain warned me to spare her and save myself. My morals said No. My conscience said No. My chivalry and pity for her said No. My prudent regard for myself said No. My ear, practised on a thousand songs and symphonies; my eye, exercised on a thousand paintings; tore her voice, her features, her color to shreds. I caught all those tell-tale resemblances to her father and mother by which I knew what she would be like in thirty years' time. I noted the gleam of gold from a dead tooth
in the laughing mouth: I made curious observations of the strange odors of the chemistry of the nerves. The visions of my
romantic reveries, in which I had trod the plains of heaven with a deathless, ageless creature of coral and ivory, deserted
me in that supreme hour. I remembered them and desperately strove to recover their illusion; but they now seemed the
emptiest of inventions: my judgment was not to be corrupted: my brain still said No on every issue. And whilst I was in the
act of framing my excuse to the lady, Life seized me and threw me into her arms as a sailor throws a scrap of fish into the
mouth of a seabird.

The man is devoured by the woman, not the other way around. The idealization of women (like Dante did to turn Beatrice into Heaven) dies with experience.

quote:
I have had my share of vanity; for as a young man I was admired by women; and as a statue I am praised by art
critics. But I confess that had I found nothing to do in the world but wallow in these delights I should have cut my throat.

When I married Ana's mother - or perhaps, to be strictly correct, I should rather say when I at last gave in and allowed Ana's mother to marry me - I knew that I was planting thorns in my pillow, and that marriage for me, a swaggering young
officer thitherto unvanquished, meant defeat and capture.


Defeat and capture of the male to the woman. YOU are the prize to be won.

Let us return to the core of Speed Seduction: getting the woman to MENTALLY have sex so she will PHYSICALLY.

The problem is that women do not think like men. Speed Seduction actually believes that it is 'changing their frame of
reference' and inserting their sexual suggested language and 'implanting' the desire of sex in her or 'pushing her buttons'.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Speed Seduction believes it is getting the woman to mentally have sex (so she will physically). But women MENTALLY are
sexual creatures and relate to everything sexually ("That is not true!" women will cry. When I mean sexually, I mean women
looking EXTERNALLY for people/things to give them value, to give them purpose on this earth). What I'm saying is...

WOMEN CANNOT BE SEDUCED!

How can you be seduced if your entire existance and mindset is bended toward union? It is like saying that one is tricking a hungry man to eat.

Getting women horny I don't find impressive. All you have to do is bark out "sex" in a subtle way with your language (both body, verbal, eyes, etc.) and the women will respond. When talking to a chick, you talk about yourself and another chick and stuff the stories full of sexual context. It is not hard. Nature's system has it set up that when a guy likes a girl (and is not afraid of his desires like these scared stuttering nice guys are), the guy's desire inflames the woman's. This is WHY men initiate, why the guy's kiss is supposed to spark that flame of desire in her veins, why after sex the woman becomes so much more attached to the guy, and why when girls find a guy masturbating about *her* she wants to finish the job!

Since we're talking about Speed Seduction, remember David Shade's eye-contact experiments? Have you tried it? They might
look at you back but other than that, you won't get much of a reaction. BUT if you look with LUSTING eyes (no drooling. The
point is to be desirous, not barbaric) you will definetely get a reaction. It is like an arrow you shoot with your eyes.
Look at that girl there! Watch! Pook looks at her in *that* way. Notice how she was just walking, but as soon as I
started, she felt it somehow. It was a shock to her system, and she looks up not in fear but more in a sense of something
external has occurred, the look of a doe when hit with headlights. She will look away quickly or whatever, but is
AFFECTED by not your eye, but by the THOUGHT that is going through the eye!

Ask out a girl, and she will think about it the entire day. She will go to her friends and say, "Hey, what do you guys think
of Pook?" They discuss and debate Pook. Eventually, the conclusion becomes clear: "Go out with Pook." So we go out and
immediately once at home, she calls her friends. "Blah blah blah." The point is that the girl did not think of Pook at all.

But when Pook showed desire towards her, BOOM, she literally metamorphed.

Without a doubt, women are becoming sluttier every day. I would be more impressed by what can be done to keep women to NOT continue on this course. There are no more maidens; therefore, there is no idealization for real men to enter into the
world. You don't hear stories of knights rescuing a slut from a dragon, or a ***** from a burning tower. Women realize not
what they do. Our age, this 'New' Age, is merely the slow dissolve into a feminine era. I respect the institutions and
philosophies that have kept women from this saddening course.

-----------------------

Has anyone noticed how ego-swelled these speed seducers are? Have you seen high school boys, once getting some sex, think

they are now gods? It is annoying that they START SHOUTING LIKE THIS and use superfluous exclamation marks (!!!!!!). Nothing is more disgusting than to see an enflamed ego without a shred of talent or skill in it.

Many of these women in these lay reports are divorced women who are looking out to 'play the field'. Others may be the adultress, or another sexed woman (when women are sexed, they want it again and again and again, more so it seems then guys.

These women are usually the ones that are supposedly 'seduced').

Last night, I was running a couple of miles for fun (hadn't done it in a while, my legs needed some movement ) and a car stops and this woman starts yelling at me. She wanted me to hop in with her and be a boytoy. Nope, I kept running, haha =)

Another thing I'm seeing common, with already several of my guy friends, is that the married women, unhappy with their husbands, desire to cheat with them.

Now, the guy will think, "I am going to get LAID! A married woman is going to cheat with ME! HAhaha, I am THE SEX GOD!"

But these fools don't realize that THEY are being used, that the woman sees you as the boytoy.

Sex is not an achievement. It will not pay your bills. It will not give you lasting joy. It will not fulfill your ambitions.

It will not give you respect. That lifestyle tends to remove ambition, drain beauty, and create unintended circumstances that have a huge impact (i.e. having a kid).

Nowdays women are so loose that AFCs even think they are sex gods. I've always said that its best to aim HIGHER than the sex, the satisfaction of Dionyisian passions. Haven't you met guys who, getting laid or having a consistant booty call, have the largest egos and think they are the Ultimate Success? These guys are fools. The live and die only to pleasure the women.

A life of chasing women is no life at all. With speed seduction, time just goes by faster and faster. Speed Seduction
reverts the Man into an object, into a Boytoy, ultimately for the woman's pleasure. Speed Seduction is the NPC, the
New Frustrated Chump.

"But Pook! You don't know Speed Seduction like I do!" I've been it and lived it for years. What a waste! You will not find a
wife by using a neg-hit or a pattern. Even if you did, you'll never be sure if she really liked you for yourself or for the
stupid 'change of reference'.

And Speed Seduction is no longer uncommon. It is everywhere. There is a hot chick (9.5) that I work with. The guys were
going nuts over this chick and doing their speed seduction. They kinoed her, they demonstrated personality (tried to make
jokes and all), and through this I never kinoed her or tried to 'display' my personality. I was the prize to be won, never her. Time ran its course and these guys constantly kinoing her, constantly trying to 'make her feel good', ended up with their mouths in a big O as they see her ending up with me. WHY? "Because you were patient Pook." And heaven forbid PATIENCE! It has no significance in something like Speed Seduction. But it is not exactly PATIENCE but more of a form of COMPOSURE.

Girls know when you are trying to pick them up. There are tons of girls that will go for it (divorced ones, adultresses, stupid girls, etc.) I've never been interested in these. I like SMART chicks, SMART and HOT . I've completely got rid of that speed seduction cr@p from my head and go entirely natural, with the emphasis that I am the prize. Yet, I STILL always get the girl! So I ask her, "Why did you go for me?" and she finally says, "You're more of a Man than those other guys." Rather than running around for pu$$y, chanting patterns and 'trying to elicit and project value', I kept my composure. Be a Man and the rest attends to itself.

------------------------------
APOLLO AND DIONYSUS
-----------------------------

There are two paths that are before you, Trickynick (and everyone infatuated with Speed Seduction). One path is the path of APOLLO, the god of the sun. This is the path of self-improvement, of infinite faculty, of spreading harmony, of
transcendence. The other path is the path of DIONYSUS, the god of the orgasm, of wine, of drunkeness, of dance, of
song, of women. This is the path back into the womb, the one that seeks pleasure over philosophy, sensuality over life, the
present over the ultimate future. Whereas Apollo is constantly the Time-Farmer, planting in his youth the seeds of thought,
process, and faculty that will blossom throughout his life, Dionysus is the one that cannot endure a frustration, who mocks
Wisdom in the streets, and thinks the purpose of temptation is merely to yield to it.

APOLLO is the path of the MAN. DIONYSUS is the path of the WOMAN.

Seen through the lens of DIONYSUS, Human weaknesses turn into a strength. Lack of self control becomes 'acting as nature
intended', purposeless scoping becomes 'playing the field', sleeping with the new girl becomes 'getting to know her', and so on. Dionysus cloaks everything with beautiful clothes. Do know where you are going.

"But Pook! This is the Don Juan board. Don Juan is to get women, to march towards the Promised Land of Endless Orgasms."

Actually, the Don Juan, as recorded by the poets and playwrights, is more than a guy that can get women. There is a sense of nobility to him. Don Juans are not the ones who live through Dionysus, who live for pleasure. That is why the Philosopher King of Sexuality, Otto Weineger, says, "One may find certain males in women's apartments, always for pleasure and living for it. However, these are not the Don Juans."

For they are the boy-toys.

------------------------
POOK
------------------------
"As you think, you shall become."

"Impossible scenarios are ingeniusly disguised as opportunties."

[This message has been edited by Pook (edited 09-10-2002).]

IP: 158.135.8.69

SexPDX

Master Don Juan
posted 09-10-2002 01:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SexPDX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:
This is what is percieved about Speed Seduction:

A way to 'seduce' women, to get them to want you, and for YOU to finally win by getting sex.

The reality:

Eliminating certain societal barriers that keep women from their caeser-like urge of union and the male becomes the entertainment of the woman. [b]not vice-versa.

Speed Seduction gets the girl mentally having sex so she physically will have sex.

Speed Seduction is useful because it works in different ways. It is good for the Nice Guy to truly see how women operate. My problem with it is that it is AFCness that works. The AFC would do anything he wanted to get the girl he wanted; the only difference between AFCness and Speed Seduction is that Speed Seduction works. The AFC was just listening to all the women
and doing their stupid advice. But in the end, the speed seducer and the AFC live and die for the woman's pleasure.
[/b]


There is a HUGE component of Speed Seduction (and any seduction for that matter) that you are neglecting completely. Seduction is not something you do TO the woman so she will have sex, it's something you do WITH the woman that the two of you indulge in together. I would agree to what you say above about SS being "AFCness that works" if we are talking about a guy who recites canned patterns that are actually other people's material and never takes it beyond that but to be done right your seductions have to affect YOU as well as the woman. You are not "entertaining" her, you are fascinating her and drawing her deeper into you.

quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:

Speed Seduction says, "You see a hot chick, don't think, go in immediately. Demonstrate personality, value. Make her feel good. After rapport, CLOSE."

I say, "You see a hot chick, you ask do YOU want her, go in if you do. Don't demonstrate YOUR personality, test for HERS. Test for HER value. Keep YOURSELF feeling good. CLOSE if you want."

With the first, the emphasis is entirely on HER. You become a boy toy, the one who becomes shaped, usually by her imagination, for HER pleasure. With the second, you are WEEDING OUT all the ones that don't fit you and getting the one that fits YOUR standards.


The reason guys are encouraged to approach and attempt seductions with large numbers of women is for EXPERIENCE.

I do disagree when you say "don't demonstrate your personality". I think that conveying personality early on is very important. You are much more likely to figure out how great SHE is if you first demonstrate how great YOU are. I agree with you that you don't want to be seen as entertainment but if you are being seen as entertainment you are not actually conveying personality. Conveying personality is about being interesting, not entertaining.

The way you are talking about making HER feel good as opposted to keeping YOURSELF feeling good as though the two were in CONFLICT with each other is flawed on a level I personally see as being very fundamental to seduction. It's another example of what I mentioned above about your idea that this something being done TO the woman rather than WITH her. That's not what SS is about and it's not what seduction is about.

What kind of experience must you have had with women to be so relentlessly opposed to doing ANYTHING that makes them feel good?

quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:

Don't tell me that Speed Seduction does not revert the man to boytoy. Look!

[b]Mirroring When she does this, do that. When she moves there, move likewise. This will make HER feel more relaxed.
[/b]


That is not everyone's method, and not mine but I will point out that you are leaving out the part where you HAVE rapport HAVE paced her current state and are NOW in a position where you are able to LEAD her to where YOU want her to go. Then she mirrors YOU. Or you can use Juggler's anti-mirroring where you ALWAYS lead.

quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:

[b]Pattering
"When you FEEL THAT CONNECTION, right THERE, you get that WARM feeling DEEP INSIDE that makes you realize
that dreams do come true." This is to give her pleasure, to put her in heat.
[/b]

What exactly is wrong with getting her hot for you? Actually, Pook, I don't really use the incredible connection pattern THAT much or if I do it's not in a "have you ever..." kind of way. I think an overreliance on that approach reflects a lack of confidence in one's ability to be the TRUE source of those feelings. You need to understand I am not "infatuated with SS", I just think there is a lot of value in it that is interpreted incorrectly by many people.

quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:

[b]Eliciting Values
She talks and goes 'blah blah blah' so you just take what she says and paraphrase it back to her.
She gets *happy*.
[/b]

I am confused now. How does this view of eliciting values jibe with what you say above about testing her personality without first demonstrating yours?

quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:

And so on. She is the focus, not yourself. And oftentimes, in all the lay reports, you'll see that the woman initially had
an interest in the guy AT SOME LEVEL. Why, what was blocking her for jumping the guy? Certain societal barriers. So the
boytoy comes along and either makes her so horny that she forgets them or he slowly disables them. He elicites values show
she thinks they are 'soul mates'. He patterns her to get her thinking in THAT way. He relaxes her slut concerns.

I might be totally missing the boat on this one but you are making it sound like you believe that when a guy makes any effort to make a woman want to have sex with him who is not essentially THROWING herself at him to begin with is being a "boytoy". And even if he is, so what? Let her think of you as a "boytoy", if that's the movie she needs going on her her head for you to have sex with her on YOUR TERMS (even though she thinks it's on hers) then let that tape roll, Pookie boy!

quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:

Speed Seduction actually believes that it is 'changing their frame of
reference' and inserting their sexual suggested language and 'implanting' the desire of sex in her or 'pushing her buttons'.

Nothing could be further from the truth.


I actually agree here to a large extent. The subconscious manipulation aspect of SS is hyped up as a marketing gimmick. What SS really is is a way for guys to learn how to have seductively structured conversations however the CONFIDENCE that they are using some kind of against-the-grain-methods has a lot to do with their results. Changing their frame of reference is not used to much to implant sexual desire but rather to get around ASD and other beliefs she may have that are obstacles.

quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:
WOMEN CANNOT BE SEDUCED!

How can you be seduced if your entire existance and mindset is bended toward union? It is like saying that one is tricking a hungry man to eat.


Seduction is not a "trick". It's something you both experience together.

quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:

Since we're talking about Speed Seduction, remember David Shade's eye-contact experiments? Have you tried it? They might
look at you back but other than that, you won't get much of a reaction. BUT if you look with LUSTING eyes (no drooling. The
point is to be desirous, not barbaric) you will definetely get a reaction. It is like an arrow you shoot with your eyes.
Look at that girl there! Watch! Pook looks at her in *that* way. Notice how she was just walking, but as soon as I
started, she felt it somehow. It was a shock to her system, and she looks up not in fear but more in a sense of something
external has occurred, the look of a doe when hit with headlights. She will look away quickly or whatever, but is
AFFECTED by not your eye, but by the THOUGHT that is going through the eye!

No arguments.


quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:
Without a doubt, women are becoming sluttier every day. I would be more impressed by what can be done to keep women to NOT continue on this course.

Do you mean to imply that a women is a slut for responding to a seduction? Okay, Ray Gordon! LOL!

quote:
Originally Posted By Pook:

There are no more maidens; therefore, there is no idealization for real men to enter into the
world. You don't hear stories of knights rescuing a slut from a dragon, or a ***** from a burning tower. Women realize not
what they do. Our age, this 'New' Age, is merely the slow dissolve into a feminine era. I respect the institutions and
philosophies that have kept women from this saddening course.

Actually, Pook, I think women have always been the way they are. They only difference is that now men are becoming increasingly less restrained by self-limiting beliefs foisted upon them by church-dominated goverments. Of course we do have OTHER sources of self-limting beliefs that you have detailed in other posts of yours (the plague of feminism), but that's another discussion.

Why should we concern ourselves with how women used to be compared with how they are now? Why not condition ourselves to be successful in that which is OUR REALITY? Maidens being rescued from towers and dragons (literally or figuritively) will NEVER be our reality. Why acknowledge it?

------------------
- The performer known as Nick

[This message has been edited by SexPDX (edited 09-10-2002).]

IP: 208.193.167.102

FREEDOM

Don Juan
posted 09-10-2002 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FREEDOM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yeah, you cant act your whole life, one day you will fall and your castle of sand will dissapear.

IP: 200.176.51.232

Pook

Master Don Juan
posted 09-10-2002 05:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pook     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Trickynick,

If you want to go on the path of Speed Seduction, go ahead. I'm not stopping you. I do not hop onto your 'lay reports' and make noise. Yet, you're on these old threads, ones that I haven't posted in literally years, to drum the march of Speed Seduction.

Which path you take is up to you to decide. I'm not going to tell you why you should take one or another. I can merely tell you what I've learned.

quote:
There is a HUGE component of Speed Seduction (and any seduction for that matter) that you are neglecting completely. Seduction is not something you do TO the woman so she will have sex, it's something you do WITH the woman that the two of you indulge in together.

You are making my point for me. It is, of course, not what YOU DO to the women, but what happens TOGETHER. And what happens together? The Man reverts to Boy-Toy.

quote:
I would agree to what you say above about SS being "AFCness that works" if we are talking about a guy who recites canned patterns that are actually other people's material and never takes it beyond that

It is easy to confuse the Nice Guy/ Average Frustrated Chump as being seen merely as FAILING to get women. Whereas, the Nice Guy/ Average Frustrated Chump's true nature is not in the failure, but WHERE HE PUTS HIS FOCUS. Where is it? Not on him; it is on the woman. The Nice Guy gives flowers, calls, tries to be 'nice', only because he thinks it will make her like him and give him what he wants.

But someone pours Speed Seduction in the Nice Guy's ear. Is there any change in the NATURE of the guy or is it merely a change of PROCESS?

It is entirely the change of process. The focus is still on the woman.

quote:
but to be done right your seductions have to affect YOU as well as the woman. You are not "entertaining" her, you are fascinating her and drawing her deeper into you.

To women, this IS entertainment. So much that is woman is tethered to sexuality. The entertainment women love (take chick flicks) always has that sexuality in its core.

quote:
The reason guys are encouraged to approach and attempt seductions with large numbers of women is for EXPERIENCE.

Oscar Wilde: "Experience is the name we give to mistakes."

If there is a choice between foresight and experience, choose foresight. There are actually some people who say, "You must be in several relationships/marriages until you get one that works." Anti-Dump was a Nice Guy that got into a bad marriage until he changed his ways (and came here to tell us so WE don't have to go through that same 'experience'). There are people who go through relationship after relationship, marriage after marriage, and they have experience. But what of it? If they had foresight, they could have developed character and self-control, wisdom and virtue, and so on. The thorns of life can be avoided. There is no requirement for you to be bloodied.

quote:
I do disagree when you say "don't demonstrate your personality". I think that conveying personality early on is very important. You are much more likely to figure out how great SHE is if you first demonstrate how great YOU are. I agree with you that you don't want to be seen as entertainment but if you are being seen as entertainment you are not actually conveying personality. Conveying personality is about being interesting, not entertaining.

Girls always think I'm interesting yet I never DEMONSTRATE it. Why? Because its a part of myself, it is natural. When you DEMONSTRATE, you are using effort of a projection (ex: being humorous). Be good-natured, humorous naturally and you don't demonstrate anything. You are merely being YOU.

quote:
The way you are talking about making HER feel good as opposted to keeping YOURSELF feeling good as though the two were in CONFLICT with each other is flawed on a level I personally see as being very fundamental to seduction. It's another example of what I mentioned above about your idea that this something being done TO the woman rather than WITH her. That's not what SS is about and it's not what seduction is about.[/quote

I never said it was not making YOURSELF feel good. But the focus still is not on yourself, it is on her. Just as the Nice Guy reverts to doormat because he thinks he can get what he wants with it (sex/relationship/whatever), the Speed Seducer reverts to boy-toy because he thinks he can get what he wants (sex).

I had my time with Speed Seduction. Eventually, I got fed up with it. "Why should I elicit their values!? Why should I always focus on them?" Now I can see clearly the state men fall into as boy-toy for the women's pleasure. "No Pook! They are satisfying MY pleasure." Oh yeah? Then why are you back there doing the same thing again? Doesn't sound like any pleasure has been satisfied. You become more enslaved to them.

[quote]What kind of experience must you have had with women to be so relentlessly opposed to doing ANYTHING that makes them feel good?


Who said I am against making women feel good? I am against putting the focus on the women.

Some women reading that will think it creates egotistical zombies. Not at all! In conversation, since the focus is on you, you talk about her. This is so you can gauge her values, her interests, and see if there is a compatibility. You are WEEDING OUT THE GIRLS that DON'T MATCH yourself. She will love the attention and you get to weed the ones that don't match out. Both win.

Women want to be with a guy who has PICKED them from all the other girls, and has PICKED them for certain reasons (such as having the same life view).

Take a speed seducer in conversation. He is DEMONSTRATING PERSONALITY. He is trying to display his feathers to obtain interest, trying to throw up his colors, or show his song. The earlier path is the path of the Man, the latter the beast.

quote:
Originally posted by SexPDX:
Actually, Pook, I think women have always been the way they are.

This might be true. If women have fallen, it is we men who take the blame.

quote:
They only difference is that now men are becoming increasingly less restrained by self-limiting beliefs foisted upon them by church-dominated goverments.

How our words differ! What you call as restraint, I call self-control.

If we call self-control a restraint, the break-down of that self-control as liberation, and wisdom as self-limiting beliefs, no wonder there are no men to be found today!

[quoteOf course we do have OTHER sources of self-limting beliefs that you have detailed in other posts of yours (the plague of feminism), but that's another discussion.[/quote]

You need to set boundaries for yourself, certain ideals that must be pursued, or life lacks meaning and purpose. It can be debated how far apart the walls are, but it is suicide to suggest all space and no walls.

You want true freedom? Try to be free of Nature's devouring appetite. The focus is on yourself, on bettering yourself in everyway. I've said this before: if you can conquer yourself, you can conquer anything!

But the key is yourself. It is not her.

quote:
I might be totally missing the boat on this one but you are making it sound like you believe that when a guy makes any effort to make a woman want to have sex with him who is not essentially THROWING herself at him to begin with is being a "boytoy".

No, it is when the focus gets placed on the woman. The man reverts to fascinating flirt of flesh for her pleasure. "But he finds pleasure in it." It is the pleasure of the drunk, of the mentally warped, of Dionysus.

Sex is woman's turf.

quote:
And even if he is, so what?

I tried to make clear that it is the Dionysus path. It is no problem if you want to go that way. But know where that path leads to. It has a severe cost.

quote:
Let her think of you as a "boytoy", if that's the movie she needs going on her her head for you to have sex with her on YOUR TERMS (even though she thinks it's on hers) then let that tape roll, Pookie boy!

She is screwing you, not the other way around. In the end, the female wins.

Take the Speed Seducer years into the future and look upon his past life. What has he done? He has merely given pleasure to women; that is all.

quote:
Why should we concern ourselves with how women used to be compared with how they are now? Why not condition ourselves to be successful in that which is OUR REALITY? Maidens being rescued from towers and dragons (literally or figuritively) will NEVER be our reality. Why acknowledge it?

Imagination is the sun that shines on this sack of flesh, this body, that flowers Man. What is the city, the painting, the symphony, the play, the technology, if not an act of imagination? What is civilization but the exercise of defiance against reality, against the cruel Nature which has poisoned us with Time?

From Hamlet:

Thus has he--and many more of the same bevy that I know the dressy age dotes on--only got the tune of the time and outward habit of encounter; a kind of yeasty collection, which carries them through and
through the most fond and winnowed opinions; and do but blow them to their trial, the bubbles are out.

The Age says, "This! This!" but you are to say to the age, "That! That!" and that is how the age changes.

How all occasions do inform against me,
And spur my dull revenge! What is a man,
If his chief good and market of his time
Be but to sleep and feed? a beast, no more.
Sure, he that made us with such large discourse,
Looking before and after, gave us not
That capability and god-like reason
To fust in us unused.

If you should say, "I do not want all this! I merely want to get laid!" What are you, a sponge for the women? A creature who is controlled by his body, enslaved by his impulses? Is there not more in you? Are you to live in this womb-like world without knowing that it was all paid by the blood of martyrs, of descendants that stream of a heroic arc to your present, of men from ages past?

You have youth on your side, knowledge on your side, the cup of opportunity brought to you, and the door to destiny open! Yet, the sweet Dionysus path is the one you go to.

I just wish I didn't have to watch you throw it all away.

------------------
POOK
------------------------
"As you think, you shall become."

"Impossible scenarios are ingeniusly disguised as opportunties."

IP: 158.135.6.65

SexPDX

Master Don Juan
posted 09-10-2002 11:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SexPDX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
Trickynick,

If you want to go on the path of Speed Seduction, go ahead. I'm not stopping you. I do not hop onto your 'lay reports' and make noise. Yet, you're on these old threads, ones that I haven't posted in literally years, to drum the march of Speed Seduction.


First off all, a post from you would have been welcomed with open arms on any f my threads. Are we supposed to stay off each other's threads simply because we disagree? What kind of exchange of ideas goes on that way?

Secondly, I have attempted to initiate discussion with you on this and related topics in the past and you never responded.

Third, the ORIGINAL POST of this thread contains comments to which I wanted to respond directly for the purpose of discussion. What's wrong with that?

BTW, I must say this has been the best discussion you and I have had since I joined the board WITH THE EXCEPTION of the discussion about whether I should wipe my ass standing up or sitting down.

To save some quoting, there are several places in your reply where you reiterate...

Focusing on the woman = Man reverts to boy toy

So, Pook, is any kind of active pursuit of sex with women being a boy toy? Because if it is, then how do you get laid without doing such a thing AT ALL? Or do you NOT CARE that you don't get laid because you are on the "Apollo Path"? But wait...you say....

quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
No, it is when the focus gets placed on the woman. The man reverts to fascinating flirt of flesh for her pleasure. "But he finds pleasure in it." It is the pleasure of the drunk, of the mentally warped, of Dionysus.

This answer may appear to mean something when wrapped up in a little classical allusion like it is but on closer examination it doesn't make sense because it STILL does not explain how you can pursue a woman for sex without focusing on her to SOME EXTENT.

quote:
Originally posted by Pook:

She is screwing you, not the other way around. In the end, the female wins.

How does anyone "win"? That's a twisted way to think if you ask me. Why do you see wanting sex and stepping up and getting it as being so degrading to a man? I don't feel it degrades me to approach a woman with the intent of seducing and having sex with her and even (dare I say it?) make her FEEL GOOD in the process. Your feeling that this is a degrading experience to you is a personal limitation that you should not masquerade as an across the board characteristic of men in general.

quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
Take the Speed Seducer years into the future and look upon his past life. What has he done? He has merely given pleasure to women; that is all.

Such a person can't POSSIBLY do anything else with their life?

quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
There are people who go through relationship after relationship, marriage after marriage, and they have experience. But what of it? If they had foresight, they could have developed character and self-control, wisdom and virtue, and so on. The thorns of life can be avoided. There is no requirement for you to be bloodied.

We are communicating from different premises here. I am talking about seduction, you are talking about marriage. And in pick up and seduction you LEARN BY CRASHING AND BURNING.

quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
Girls always think I'm interesting yet I never DEMONSTRATE it. Why? Because its a part of myself, it is natural. When you DEMONSTRATE, you are using effort of a projection (ex: being humorous). Be good-natured, humorous naturally and you don't demonstrate anything. You are merely being YOU.

Nothing in conflict with what I said. What I meant by "demonstrating" what simply to show them you are interesting. And of course you are right that being an interesting person to begin with is the best way to do this.

quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
You need to set boundaries for yourself, certain ideals that must be pursued, or life lacks meaning and purpose. It can be debated how far apart the walls are, but it is suicide to suggest all space and no walls.

You want true freedom? Try to be free of Nature's devouring appetite. The focus is on yourself, on bettering yourself in everyway. I've said this before: if you can conquer yourself, you can conquer anything!


I have no arguments to the above, it is excellent advice.

quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
You have youth on your side, knowledge on your side, the cup of opportunity brought to you, and the door to destiny open! Yet, the sweet Dionysus path is the one you go to.

I just wish I didn't have to watch you throw it all away.


Since at one time in my life (about a year now) I did consider you the impetus for changes in my life that were necessary I will suspend my own judgement regarding your advice on what path I should take and see for myself.

SexPDX disappears down the path of Apollo

------------------
- The performer known as Nick

IP: 63.53.238.76

Pook

Master Don Juan
posted 09-12-2002 02:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pook     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

quote:
Originally posted by SexPDX:
First off all, a post from you would have been welcomed with open arms on any f my threads. Are we supposed to stay off each other's threads simply because we disagree? What kind of exchange of ideas goes on that way?

No, that is not the point. I almost did post on some of your threads. But I held off because its not the type of posts I want to do. Besides, what point in it would there be? We all must go our own paths. When you started on a couple of these old threads, you forced me to post (and I hate these type of posts ).

quote:

Secondly, I have attempted to initiate discussion with you on this and related topics in the past and you never responded.

I have a hard time keeping up with many of the posts.

quote:
Third, the ORIGINAL POST of this thread contains comments to which I wanted to respond directly for the purpose of discussion. What's wrong with that?

Because I have, on this computer, a series of posts linked with the theme, "The Female Explained". They're still in pieces, but I've never despised writing anything as much like this. Hints of it have been in my more recent posts. The more I post, the more it comes out. I honestly don't want to believe it and if I had the chance, I would NOT want to know it. I'm trying to prove myself wrong but I can't! No one deserves this melancholy.

It's not that I'm against discussion. It's just that I don't want to say what I'm finding true.

quote:
So, Pook, is any kind of active pursuit of sex with women being a boy toy? Because if it is, then how do you get laid without doing such a thing AT ALL? Or do you NOT CARE that you don't get laid because you are on the "Apollo Path"?

I had a professor who, in loving to show the 'absurdity' of Neiztche's views on women, would love to use his quote, "Men are the warriors. Women are the relaxation to the warriors." When the professor said it, he was trying to mock Nieztche for his 'stupidity' and 'absolute lunacy' on Man and Woman. For a while, I thought it was kinda odd.

But the only type of Man is a warrior. This is the guy fighting. Fighting for what? Who knows. But he is pushing for something. His life is not one to sit in the hammock. His life is not so much action, but a type of perspective. He is going against Nature, against Time, against people's self-settling attitudes. You will find this type of guy in the High School Football star that the young girls can't get enough of. You will find this guy in firemen, in paramedics, in rescue workers. It is not merely athletic. The athleticness is a SIGN of this warrior-likeness. It is not so much that women like these bodies (they do love these bodies) but it is that these bodies signal this WARRIOR element to them. They crave this. What is confidence, the high idealizations a man holds, the mindset of an arrow, the 'hard on the outside but tender on the inside', for all of these are qualities of this 'warrior'. We know women love watching MEN compete, fight, war.

Oscar Wilde says, "The most beautiful women's husbands belong to a criminal class." Often, the 'jerks' that women keep going for is that they sense their stupid childlike rebellions as 'warriorness'.

Women feel their greatest pleasure giving such 'relaxement' to a Man, to a warrior. This even includes their husbands, for the woman knows what he goes through. He does not complain, whine, or cry about it. He takes up his burden on Atlas shoulders and carries on. The woman stands with him, supports him, gives him rest.

We've found in our lives that work usually increases pleasure and happiness. For example, a young one working may hate working, but feels a certain dignity that the work gives is noticiable. When we FACE responsibilites rather than trying to slip from them, the result is a little bit of hardship followed by pleasantness. We wonder why we didn't have that attitude before!

The greatest pleasure for a guy is to be a Man. That is the point of the above.

The majority of people use their lives for one purpose: to attempt to climb back into the womb. It is the schoolchild who dreams of an eternal summer vacation, of workers who dream of eternal weekends, and so on. With their ration of time, these people do whatever it is required to 'get by' (pay the bills, whatever) and SPEND the rest of their time trying to find that curled up ball of fluidy pleasant warmness. Even if they get it to return, they must go back to reality to 'pay the bills' and all. These people think the greatest evil in the world is Monday.

There are only two directions. One is FACING the womb, trying to replicate comfort and warmness forever and onward, a hopeless attempt to create the Eternal Orgasm. The other is facing AWAY from the womb, trying to make his existance worthwile, to fly as far as possible.

Benjamin Franklin, at the eve of his life, decided he had done enough and was going to take it easy. He slept in all the time (ignoring his "Early to bed, early to rise, makes a boy healthy and wise") and had other pleasures (i.e. women). This is telling because it means the EARLIER part of his life was a sense of fight, never a priority on pleasure/pleasantness. John Adams, seeing the new country grow, grew dismayed at how many people would just merely work to get money just to spend it on pleasure rather than having a sense of improving themselves (this is also telling of how HE thought).

Does this mean such 'Apollo' path means no sex, no relaxation, no pleasure? Absolutely not! As Neiztche says women are the relaxement of the warrior, so is the purpose of the pleasures. Drinking is the relaxement; we know full too well what horrors occur when it is made the focus. Watching TV is relaxment; yet, if you FOCUS on it, the miserable 'couch potato' syndrome starts.

Women are the same way. They are a form of RELAXEMENT, they cannot and must not be the focus. Yet, Apollo can get laid.

In fact, he MUST get laid. There is a problem in going to an extreme. Icarus flew as close he could to the Apollonian sun only to have his wings melt and himself plunge into the Dionysian sea. If one tries to wall himself from all pleasure, from all relaxement, one will eventually snap. From time to time, it is best to dip down toward the Dionysan sea to keep from burning up. (Ex: Wise Presidents make sure they have a steady supply of 'relaxment' to keep them healthy and sane. Workaholism is a suicide.)

But the FOCUS, the AIM, is not at the enjoyment (and have you noticed when one DOES focus on this, that it becomes LESS enjoyable?). Keep your head above the water.

Then you will meet people who plunged towards the depths. They have no sense of purpose, no meaning. They only avoid Monsieur Pain to run toward Madame Pleasure. (Yet, these people who constantly seek pleasure end up ultimately losing it). You will say to these people, "What are you? Are you a person? Are you but to sleep and feed and go to your grave like a bed?"

It is not to say 'never' to sex. Chopin had a mistress, but his focus was always on his music. The mistress was life's massage for his pursuing life. Aristotle had a concubine. But imagine if his focus was ON the concubine!

quote:
How does anyone "win"? That's a twisted way to think if you ask me.

There is a devouring element in the woman. I'd rather not expand on it. Many guys get swallowed up by them.

quote:
SexPDX disappears down the path of Apollo

The advantage of the Apollo is that any day you can hop towards Dionysus, but the people on Dionysus can never move to Apollo (and if they do, it is too late).

------------------
POOK
------------------------
"As you think, you shall become."

"Impossible scenarios are ingeniusly disguised as opportunties."

IP: 158.135.8.49

XXX

Don Juan
posted 09-12-2002 09:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for XXX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pook:

The majority of people use their lives for one purpose: to attempt to climb back into the womb. It is the schoolchild who dreams of an eternal summer vacation, of workers who dream of eternal weekends, and so on. With their ration of time, these people do whatever it is required to 'get by' (pay the bills, whatever) and SPEND the rest of their time trying to find that curled up ball of fluidy pleasant warmness. Even if they get it to return, they must go back to reality to 'pay the bills' and all. These people think the greatest evil in the world is Monday.

There are only two directions. One is FACING the womb, trying to replicate comfort and warmness forever and onward, a hopeless attempt to create the Eternal Orgasm. The other is facing AWAY from the womb, trying to make his existance worthwile, to fly as far as possible.


Watch "Kate & Leopold" for an example to the above (first paragraph.)

and I like the second part. Never thought of it that way.

IP: 131.155.14.130

CyranoDeBergerac

Master Don Juan
posted 09-12-2002 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CyranoDeBergerac     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pook, you seem to have a way of delving into waters I can only skim across. I would like to thank you and SexPDX for having this discussion as I am truly affected. It has helped me realize many concepts which call for actualization, and has enlightened me as to where I am, but more importantly where I need to be. Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go to war with myself...

-CyranoDeBergerac

IP: 65.160.210.49

SexPDX

Master Don Juan
posted 09-12-2002 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SexPDX     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
No, that is not the point. I almost did post on some of your threads. But I held off because its not the type of posts I want to do.

Sorry, Pook, but my posting behavior is not influenced in the least by what kind of posting YOU want to do. The focus is on ME, LOL .

quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
When you started on a couple of these old threads, you forced me to post

To be honest, that was the idea. Glad to see it worked

quote:
Originally posted by Pook:
and I hate these type of posts

Pook, nothing but love for ya, but this is a damnable lie. In fact I would go so far as to say you are eating this up with a spoon and there is no reason you should not because it is a good discussion. OTOH if you truly do HATE this type of exchange as you say then the fact that you are expending so much effort towards it does not speak very highly of the value you place on your own time.

Anyhow, last night I decided to take to heart what you have been saying and carry that attitude into the field with me. I was hanging out at LJ's place (my wing/field mentor in case you don't recall me mentioning him) and we had a couple attractive girls come over, one of who he had known and recently gotten back in touch with. LJ, BTW, has a similar attitude to what you mention about keeping the focus on yourself but he articulates it differently, "always stick with what YOUR game is" is how he puts it. I just decided I would not put myself in the mindset of pursuit or making efforts at attraction untill I had qualified their personalities to see where they fit in with what I had going on keeping the focus on myself.

The girls kept talking to each other while they were with each other but when I isolated on of them on the back porch leaving LJ with the other she was kind of a high-strung blabbermouth. I would throw in bits and pieces of deeper conversation and she did bit and carried those thread of conversation on for actually a while making it a good conversation but at the first slight lull of the conversation she was back to blabbering about what she had been talking about the whole time she was there. For a while I got her talking about whether or not she knew her trigram (feng shui) and I told her a little bit about what feng shui and qi are all about. I got some kino in on the porch and we went back inside.

Also, I have come to realize that what may seem like annoying, nervous blabber coming from chicks may actually be product of them being made slightly nervous from feeling a glimmer of attraction and attempting to mask that attraction by appearing "busy" by either figiting or blabbering.

At this point I am thinking this girls DEFINITELY not LTR material or anything like that and DOES have some personal mannerisms that are slightly annoying but it in NO WAY makes it such that I don't still want to have sex with her. She out of nowhere said, "check out my nails, they are real." To which I replied by taking her hand and saying, "wow, those are nice. Are you SURE they are real? You know, I always ask girls if their nails are real." LJ grins in the backgroud recalling the canned Mystery neg hit he has heard me use before. She starts talking to her friend again and I go pour myself some Old English 800 in a frosted beer stein and take a seat next to her on the couch and while she is talking press the frosted glass against her bare shoulder and she goes "mmm" for sec before she resumes talking, which LJ later commended as being very "pimp sh1t", however I did it really only because I was having fun and being playful with no regard to hitting on her.

LJ and I planned on hanging out at my parents' house which I have all to myself while they are in Europe next week and I see no reason why we should not bring them over, especially since we have "paired off" on the two of them and could probably have sex with them. I'll be sure to do the old frosted beer glass touch on her arm again and maybe figure out exactly what her trigram is and bring it up when she comes over. The thing is the I enjoy talking about feng shui and putting cold beer glasses on her. I think it's hilarious fun. And to be honest, part if the fun IS that she is digging it.

Pook, your points hinting at me seeing the game itself as the substance in life rather than the PRODUCT of substance in my life are well-taken I can assure you. That being said I would like to ask you, don't you enjoy spitting game at a woman for it's own sake? Isn't it fun to you? Don't you get a charge out of it? I sure as hell do and don't understand how you can't.

------------------
- The performer known as Nick

[This message has been edited by SexPDX (edited 09-12-2002).]

IP: 208.193.167.102

xniceguy

Master Don Juan
posted 09-12-2002 01:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for xniceguy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
PDX:

"I go pour myself some Old English 800 in a frosted beer stein "

Ouch. How old are you? When I hit 20 my stomach could no longer handle the OE. Shudder. You's a braver man than I.


Pook:

"There is a devouring element in the woman. I'd rather not expand on it. Many guys get swallowed up by them."

So true. Women are parasites, not creating value by themselves, but taking value from their host, men. Compounding the problem is the fact that they are *stupid* parasites; they kill their host whenever possible.

"Don't spend time being a man! Spend time paying attention to me me me me me me me!"

Of course, then she starts complaining you're boring, have no ambition, etc. etc..... Sigh. I'm actually starting to wonder if women are worth the effort.


------------------
Chicks don't think. Chicks feel.

IP: 65.207.101.212

Pook

Master Don Juan
posted 09-15-2002 12:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pook     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SexPDX:
Pook, nothing but love for ya, but this is a damnable lie. In fact I would go so far as to say you are eating this up with a spoon and there is no reason you should not because it is a good discussion.

I've expected to come here one day and see this forum (at least some of the posts) gone into that blackhole into the internet. Therefore, there is no spoon!

My vanity lies on other things, completly deattached from this site.

quote:
OTOH if you truly do HATE this type of exchange as you say then the fact that you are expending so much effort towards it does not speak very highly of the value you place on your own time.

For writing I consider to be 'effort', it would have to be a type of verse, say iambic pentameter or spenser form. Everything I write on this forum I do with my little finger. That is why I make so many crass mistakes and elementary errors with spelling and such. (Someone reminded me about THEN and THAN! LOL!) I'm not putting much an effort. (My posts run long because I love reading my thoughts, haha)

quote:
Anyhow, last night I decided to take to heart what you have been saying and carry that attitude into the field with me. I was hanging out at LJ's place (my wing/field mentor in case you don't recall me mentioning him) and we had a couple attractive girls come over, one of who he had known and recently gotten back in touch with. LJ, BTW, has a similar attitude to what you mention about keeping the focus on yourself but he articulates it differently, "always stick with what YOUR game is" is how he puts it. I just decided I would not put myself in the mindset of pursuit or making efforts at attraction untill I had qualified their personalities to see where they fit in with what I had going on keeping the focus on myself.

The biggest risk for many here comes not with failure (for if we weren't failures at first, we wouldn't be here!), but with success. I have seen far too many guys, once knowing that they can easily GET women, end up totally losing themselves. This is not to say that women are bad or that the game is bad. But the point is not to live so you can Don Juan; it is to Don Juan so that you can live.

I've always been afraid that this forum would turn into a satellite for Speed Seduction. There are plenty of SS type sites; I haven't found another site like this one. SS comes and goes her in cycles which is fine. But regardless of the cocky type SSers talk, there is more to women than anything dreamed in the PU.

Do not let the Game become the aim of your life (for that would amount to a sad life!). Even with your free-time, have some other priorities.

"But Pook! But Pook! Rest assured that the Game shall be my life."

What is your life? It is a matter of habit. Show me your habits and I'll show you your life.

Obviously, no one who makes no effort to don juan is going to do so overnight, no matter how much is read. A big key in being successful with don juaning is HABIT.

But don't let the habit continue to swell and grow and shove off the other habits, especially the ones that aim at your own idealism and dreams. For if you lose those, you lose your life.

There is high potential in all of us, even if we don't realize it ourselves, and I'm going to do everything I can to yank it out of you.

quote:
The girls kept talking to each other while they were with each other but when I isolated on of them on the back porch leaving LJ with the other she was kind of a high-strung blabbermouth. I would throw in bits and pieces of deeper conversation and she did bit and carried those thread of conversation on for actually a while making it a good conversation but at the first slight lull of the conversation she was back to blabbering about what she had been talking about the whole time she was there.

Haha, they do tend to do that!

When men talk, we usually focus on the SUBJECT of the discussion. We can talk on and on about a subject and forget that the other person is there. It is like we are talking of the mental idea, THAT is the focus.

When women talk, they usually talk to each other. They can never talk like men, in forgetting the present surroundings and talking and thinking of the transcendent thought at hand. No, there is no 'subject' but only to the other person. Thus, anything you talk about is going to be seen as how it is seen or thought in relation to her or something else. (That is why as soon as the princess gets out of class, she is immediately on her cell phone. Heaven forbid she be alone for a few minutes and has to endure not silence but the transcendent thoughts of her MIND.)

quote:
For a while I got her talking about whether or not she knew her trigram (feng shui) and I told her a little bit about what feng shui and qi are all about. I got some kino in on the porch and we went back inside.

Although the feminine does not like intellectualism, she DOES like a guy who is smart (not because she can hear you blabber intellectualism, but because your added value means her added value). It's often good to try to get something like you were doing with the chick. She, herself, might discover a 'mental connection' and fall in love with you with her mind (which the body follows). (And this is all without the incredible connection pattern.)

quote:
Also, I have come to realize that what may seem like annoying, nervous blabber coming from chicks may actually be product of them being made slightly nervous from feeling a glimmer of attraction and attempting to mask that attraction by appearing "busy" by either figiting or blabbering.

Yes, but I haven't noticed INTELLIGENT chicks behaving like that (those are the ones I always want). Or maybe its a matter of maturity.

quote:
At this point I am thinking this girls DEFINITELY not LTR material or anything like that and DOES have some personal mannerisms that are slightly annoying but it in NO WAY makes it such that I don't still want to have sex with her.

I'm not saying you must go LTR. Just keep your own ideals and dreams intact. And don't let the women suck up too much of your precious time.

I keep saying this because we all have such an unfilled potential. We make up excuses for successes with the words 'luck', 'talent', 'skills' or 'genius' yet IN EVERY CASE these fellows INVESTED their time rather than SPENT it.

Thomas Jefferson had the looks and skills to go get the girls. He would go to dances and parties, and be with all the girls. But he realized that time was flying by and only becoming faster. So he set the next part of his life in study, reading, writing, and all. He had an image of himself and realized that if that image was to become reality, he had to work on it.

"But Pook, we cannot be a Thomas Jefferson." Who says!? WHO SAYS!? Don't tell me you can't or anyone can't. The colonies were only 3 million people. 3 million! My hometown is larger than that! And such men of such ability came from such a small population! What is the population now? And where are the Men? WHERE?

The world's population has been relatively small for most of history. Only since the Industrial Revolution and all has the population boomed. But before that, there were the greatest artists, the finest musicians, the most insightful philosophers, and greatest men. Where are they today!? Our population is far larger than anytime in history. Shouldn't the number of 'prime movers' be LARGER?

My guess is the 'Remnant' idea. It is beyond dispute that the Renaissance was a blossom of thought and ability. Yet, its population was LESS than that of the Middle Ages. Most particularly, the Bubonic Plague came and reduced one third of the European population. The survivors, the remnants, were much more aware of death, decay, and the passage of time than their preceding generations. This drove them 'away' from the womb, that devouring Nature. They literally went to war against Nature and created empires and treatises, plays and masterpieces, that would stand the test of time.

My guess is that today we have assumed victory over Nature. Like a conquered thing, we have fallen in love with it. That we will destroy the earth without consciously trying, that the old style of literature/poetic heroism should be the responsibility of science, nature's classifier. "Psychologies, mental works of the brain, evolution theories- these are to be the basis of our lifestyles." But where is the transcendence in it? "Young men running for women all the time- that is natural." Yes, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't demand more.

[Sosuave.com: Noone can get on a tangent like Pook.]

Thanks, Sosuave! ... I think.

Back to Trickynick post:

quote:
Pook, your points hinting at me seeing the game itself as the substance in life rather than the PRODUCT of substance in my life are well-taken I can assure you.

Is it? I hope so.

quote:
That being said I would like to ask you, don't you enjoy spitting game at a woman for it's own sake? Isn't it fun to you? Don't you get a charge out of it? I sure as hell do and don't understand how you can't.

Yes, but it can actually get old.
Those who never tire of 'the game' are eternally children. These are the same people who never tire of movies, or anything of entertainment.

To illustrate the point, I've invited Byron to this post. Byron, what do you have to say?

"That's easy, Pook...

"It is true from early habit, one must make love mechanically as one swims; I was once very fond of both, but now as I never swim unless I tumble into the water, I don't make love till almost obliged."

And, Master Poet Byron, the writer of our Don Juan poem and icon, what effect does women have on you?

"There is something to me very softening in the presence of a woman, some strange influence, even if one is not in love with them, which I cannot at all account for, having no very high opinion of the sex. But yet, I always feel in better humour with myself and every thing else, if there is a woman within ken."

And of subtracting the infancy from ourselves?

"When one subtracts from life infancy (which is vegetation), sleep, eating and swilling, buttoning and unbuttoning-how much remains of downright existence? The summer of a dormouse."

But Byron...

"Yes"

What is your last word... of the body and mind?

"Man is born passionate of body, but with an innate though secret tendency to the love of Good in his main-spring of Mind. But God help us all! It is at present a sad jar of atoms."

A sad jar of atoms! Alas!

------------------
POOK
------------------------
"As you think, you shall become."

"Impossible scenarios are ingeniusly disguised as opportunties."

IP: 158.135.8.77

lordclem*

Master Don Juan
posted 09-18-2002 10:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lordclem*     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Just keep your own ideals and dreams intact. And don't let the women suck up too much of your precious time."

"Do not let the Game become the aim of your life (for that would amount to a sad life!). Even with your free-time, have some other priorities."

Thats what this whole thread took to say!i am glad it happened.and it very much needed saying. "dont be all about women and inprove thy self" was the 2 most potent things i learn when i first came to the site.i also agree that sometimes i wonder if the other guys are keeping it up. but that really up to them

and guys this may or may not apply to but you but i have been researching human behavior (men,women and self)and have found that some days i am pissed off by being human,when i understand the process by which we make most of our choices,and how they affect us and others.
like most people wont bother to help with the enviroment simply because its too big and abstract and they dont think its helps them personly.add the people who do dont really cant about it either!

lol one thing about science that i love is that in a few decades anything we know NOW could be shown to be utter crap.

understanding the human phyisc has been .....well lets just say familiarity breeds contempt.

IP: 213.122.189.138

Foxhunter

Don Juan
posted 09-19-2002 07:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Foxhunter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am a little perplexed by this thread.

I mean, Pook's main theme here and in many of his other posts is one of self improvement and fulfilment of one's life potential, yes? Its almost as if his thoughts are about to transcend from being a Don Juan to an outright meaning of Man.

I can just see it now. I am 100 and sitting in front of my children and grandchildren being asked about how I acquired my wisdom of life and existence and I answer, "Well, it all started with me visiting this website about how to get women to have sex with me...."

I fail to see why I cannot foster an attitude of self-development and self-fulfilment, but still not strive to master the concepts of SS. The former is a philosophy and the latter is a methodology. You can focus your life around the pursuit of women and never even have heard of SS - you cannot invalidate SS by assuming that it controls your life.

Sure, women are not everything and should not be everything in a man's life. But women sure are fun to play with and if I can adapt a few bits of SS to enhance that play, then my life can only be better for it.

[This message has been edited by Foxhunter (edited 09-19-2002).]

IP: 61.88.45.5

thecraftylefty

Don Juan
posted 09-19-2002 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for thecraftylefty     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I'm certainly not Pook or SexPDX but I'll throw in what I've learned along my journey. Basically I live my life by this one simple quote. Since Pook shared an excerpt from Hamlet I think I'll stay on the same track and share some more insight from Shakespeare.

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." --William Shakespeare--

When I first read that statement I was at a loss for words. It is very simple yet powerful. Understanding the quote and relating it to Pook's outlook vs. SexPDX's, it can be inferred that each see their view as the right one when in fact I believe either both or neither could be "right."

Each bring up good points to support their case. Even the AFC's of the world think their outlook is right. Who are we to tell them they're wrong? We can only provide options for which each person chooses their path.

I've read endless amounts of posts from Pook and SexPDX (Trickynick before he started his seduction phase) here as SoSuave, and even more from ASF and also plenty of books. I've gained more knowledge than I ever imagined. I never knew what I was missing out on when I was an AFC. I just thought that was my only option. I was never aware I could be more. When I found this site it was like a gateway to what I wanted my life to be like. I dreamed of the day that I would be able to sarge or DJ any chick I chose into liking me. It's only natural to want to be accepted. Enough of that, I'm getting off track of what I really want to say.

So Pook is pretty much saying that becoming a MAN is the "right" way while SexPDX advocates seduction is worthy of being another weapon in our arsenals. It's all what you choose to believe. And I believe everyone has the right to side with whatever best suits them. If in time this decision changes so be it. But at this instance in time walk your own path. Do what you feel is right. Nothing is impossible.

One last quote though:

"To know is nothing at all, to imagine is everything." --Anatole France--

thecraftylefty

IP: 65.210.64.18

ESPN

Master Don Juan
posted 09-23-2002 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ESPN     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What's the cost of being on Dionisius path?

IP: 200.204.154.235


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